GeoNames Forum

Hi,
searching for 'Alkersum' shows me that it is a PPL and an ADM4, which I cannot believe (I know that area).

I found on http://www.nordfriesland.de/index.phtml?mNavID=28.13&sNavID=28.74 the document http://www.nordfriesland.de/media/custom/45_4866_1.PDF?1297086867 (Verzeichnis der Ämter, Städte und amtsfreien Gemeinden, Stand: 27.06.2011) which says that it must be "Föhr-Amrum" (if I interpret the text correctly). In that case AMD4 is called "Amt".
I believe the data on geonames.org is out of sync for ADM3 "Kreis Nordfriesland"....

(I am not sure if I am able to 'repair' this. I could try, but I believe this is done better by someone who knows what he is doing...)

Best regards!

It looks alright to me. I find tons of references for the 'Gemeinde Alkersum':

http://www.amtfa.de/fg_fld.htm
http://www.alkersum.de/Gemeinde/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkersum

Best Regards

Marc

Hi marc,

I didn't say 'Gemeinde Alkersum' is wrong. (At least that wasn't my intention. I should have read my text before submitting.)

I just wanted to say that there is a missing administrative division between '(Kreis) Nordfriesland' and '(Gemeinde) Alkerum': The '(Amt) Föhr-Amrum'.
(Your link http://www.alkersum.de/Gemeinde/index.html also says this: "Alkersum ist selbständige Gemeinde im Amt Föhr - Land und im Kreis Nordfriesland.")

While searching for more arguments I found the nice picture "Vertikale Verwaltungsstruktur Deutschlands" on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeinde_(Deutschland). A quick look at the leftmost part of the picture seems to support my thesis.
BUT: In the running text it says: "Ämter sind keine staatliche Verwaltungsstufe" (engl.: "An 'Amt' is not a governmental administrative level")

That is a very bad situation (at least for me).

The ADM1-4 here at geonames are only 'official' levels, right? Hm, is there an other way to put a non-official division into the hierarchy?
E.g. by using ADMD? But how do I know that this ADMD is between ADM3 and ADM4? Is that done by the hierarchy.zip?

Or are there other/better ways to map this situation?

Is geonames.org interested in supporting such 'unoffical' but existing (!) admin levels at all?

Best regards!

I agree that the best way to model this would be to include the 'Amt' level as ADMD and the relation between adm3 to Amt and Amt to ADM4 in the hierarchy table.

If you want to provide a list of all Gemeinden with their Ämter (all over Germany where applicable) we can easily insert them in a batch job.

Best regards

Marc

While preparing the data I noticed two problems:
1.
The 'Amt'-Hierarchy isn't strictly hierarchy. Is that a problem for the underlying data representation?

a)
Almost all members of the 'Amt Großer Plöner See' are inside 'Kreis Plön', but there is one exception!
The municipality 'Bosau' of 'Kreis Ostholstein' is also a member of 'Amt Großer Plöner See'!
So it looks like
Kreis Ostholstein,Amt:Amt Großer Plöner See,Bosau
Kreis Plön,Amt:Amt Großer Plöner See,Ascheberg
Kreis Plön,Amt:Amt Großer Plöner See,Bösdorf

b)
Almost all members of the 'Amt Itzstedt' are inside 'Kreis Segeberg', but there is one exception!
The municipality 'Tangstedt' of 'Kreis Stormarn' is also a member of 'Amt Itzstedt'!
So it looks like
Kreis Stormarn,Amt:Amt Itzstedt,Tangstedt
Kreis Segeberg,Amt:Amt Itzstedt,Kayhude
Kreis Segeberg,Amt:Amt Itzstedt,Nahe

2.
The 'Amt' only exists in Bundesland Schleswig-Holstein and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.
Other Bundesländer are using different terms for similar constructions. (Because the legal/political status differs slightly from Bundesland to Bundesland...)
- in Bundesland Rheinland-Pfalz and Sachsen-Anhalt they have a "Verbandsgemeinde"
- in Thürigen and Sachsen they have a "Verwaltungsgemeinschaft"
- in Niedersachsen they have a "Samtgemeinde"

Is it possible for the underlying data representation to differentiate between that (e.g. is there a 'type' field for 'ADMD' or a field for the correct name/narration?) or is that white-bread stuff for the database?

I am attaching a list for Schleswig-Holstein. Rest is done when I know the format is OK for you and when I have a spare weekend again.

The format is (hopefully) easy to parse...
Empty lines or lines starting wth '#' can be ignored.
"Kreisfreie Stadt": The four towns in Schleswig-Holstein not being a "Kreis".
"Amtsfreie Stadt": A town not being part of an 'Amt'.
"Amtsfreie Gemeinde": A municipality not being part of an 'Amt'.
"Amt": The long name of the 'Amt'.

The list is complete for Schleswig-Holstein. That means: Entries which are not mentioned here, should not be in the db. At least not at their resp. levels. At least if there are no errors in my data.

Have fun!

Thanks. I have inserted the Ämter as ADMD with the tag 'amt'. For those belonging to a ADM3 I have set the adm3 code. For those two that belong to two adm3 I have set the adm3 code to null.
The relation between adm4 and Amt in in the hierarchy table with the 'type' 'amt'. On the info baloon the hierarchy is visible with the 'contains' link for the Amt and the 'part of' menu for the Gemeinde.

All information will be included in the next daily dump tomorrow.

It would be better to use tab or semicolon as delimiter in the csv file as there was a comma in one Gemeinde Name.

Thanks for your contribution.

Best Regards

Marc

Great!
But I wonder why it doesn't also work the other way around:
When I click at 'part of' in the baloon of 'Amt Föhr-Amrum' I expected to see 'Kreis Nordfriesland' and in the baloon of 'Kreis Nordfriesland' I expected to see 'Amt Föhr-Amrum' by clicking at 'contains'...

Anyway, here is the (promised) list of 'Ämter' of 'Bundesland Mecklenburg-Vorpommern'.
In this Bundesland there are no exceptions like in 'Schleswig Holstein' and the data is separated by semicolons this time, as ordered.

Best regdards.

The hierarchy (part of, contains) only covers the additional relations not already covered by the administrative tree. "Amt Föhr-Amrum" is a direct child of 'Kreis Nordfriesland' the hierarchical information is available in the admin relation.
It is different for those two exceptions that are not strictly hierarchical. In those two cased the information is available in the 'part-of' and 'contains' menus.

Example:
http://www.geonames.org/7874780/amt-grosser-ploener-see.html
(click on 'part of' to see both 'parents'.)

Thanks for 'Schleswig Holstein'. It has been inserted.

Best Regards

Marc