GeoNames Home | Postal Codes | Download / Webservice | About 

GeoNames Forum
  [Search] Search   [Recent Topics] Recent Topics   [Groups] Back to home page 
[Register] Register / 
[Login] Login 
Fifth Level and Historical Administrative Divisions  XML
Forum Index -> Administrative Divisions
Author Message
Gilros



Joined: 02/08/2011 20:25:01
Messages: 23
Location: Brazil
Offline

Hi Marc

Just now I realized Geonames created the ADM5 feature code for three countries (France, Nepal and Germany so far). What is the concept of this classification? Locations classified like that do not seem to be municipalities, do they?

Well, there are other five new (at least for me) feature codes that are historical ones. The file featureCodes_en.txt says:
"A.ADMnH historical nth-order administrative division a former nth-order administrative division" and
"A.ADMDH historical administrative division a former administrative division of a political entity, undifferentiated as to administrative level"
Sorry for making such an obvious question because my files are as of June, 28th and don't bring any register classified like that.
So is the following statement correct?
If we are interested in knowing only current administrative divisions we must ignore the ones classified as ADMxH.

I might have more questions after downloading new data and verifying examples of historical adm divisions.

Regards
marc



Joined: 08/12/2005 07:39:47
Messages: 4412
Offline

Hi Gilros

ADM5 are administrative division just a level below ADM4. As for the rather low level they are often local admin divisions. The term 'municipality' is very dependent on the country and can not be applied globally to any level. It is possible that some countries/regions call the fifth level 'municipality'.

The historic features codes are new and we are still working on it.

ADM1H historical first-order administrative division
ADM2H historical second-order administrative division
ADM3H historical third-order administrative division
ADM4H historical fourth-order administrative division
ADMH historical administrative division
PPLCH historical capital of a political entity
PPLH historical populated place
PCLH historical political entity
RGNH historical region

As you correctly say, they refer to historic entities that no longer exist today.

Marc

[WWW]
OMS_Services



Joined: 14/08/2012 10:44:16
Messages: 1
Offline

Is there any detail available on these new codes and how they will operate?

I am looking at saving place name information relating to genealogical records so the ability to maintain historical information is crucial.
Many English counties have undergone boundary changes in the past and I need an easy mechanism to maintain this information.

If anyone shares a similar interest or has any other input, I would welcome some contact.

Roger
[WWW]
athenaeum



Joined: 19/08/2012 12:44:46
Messages: 2
Offline

I'm also quite interested in this data and how you're building it up. I've just started getting to know the data and working on an iport process for my web site.

A couple of points/questions:
1. Can we add historical nations as well, using whatever fcodes are relevant (PCLIH,PCLDH etc)?

2. Are you planning to work toward some kind of mapping of the historical places to their modern-day designations?

For example, the nation of Prussia was split into what is currently Germany and Poland. Do we intend to one day represent that somehow?

Thanks,
Chris

The Athenaeum - Interactive humanities online
[WWW]
marc



Joined: 08/12/2005 07:39:47
Messages: 4412
Offline

Hi Chris

1. Yes, features of type PCLH can be added.
2. No, not in the sense of putting relations between features. I think this is more efficiently modelled with defining the geographic extent (polygons) of a feature and a period where this extent was valid. For a given lat/lng this will allow you to figure out when it was part of Prussia and when it was part of Germany.

Of course the historical feature types alone are not sufficient it needs a period when this feature existed, the same for the hierarchical relation between features (example a Roman province to the the Roman empire).

Best Regards

Marc

[WWW]
bastienjacquet



Joined: 25/11/2014 13:11:43
Messages: 1
Offline

Hi all,

I'm developer of Gramps (an open-source genealogy software), and historical location and name of places and their administrative hierarchy over time is of importance to us. A location can belong to different region or country over time.
In that direction, I recently added the old districts of Paris (in use before 1860) and their subdivisions into quarters (some of their names are still in use today).

Doing so, I encountered some unclear points, I mailed the Geonames Ambassador for France (Christophe Boutreux), but he answered he has no time anymore for Geonames, so here are my questions:
  • How can I enter polygons for a ADMx place and more complex data as FROM/Till tags ?
  • "Arrondissement" are officially in use for 3 French cities (Paris, Lyon and Marseilles). However, they are not tagged as ADM5 in Paris, any special reason why ?
  • ADM5H does not exist (yet?), so I used ADMDH for each old Parisian "Arrondissement". Is it ok ?
    [list]"Quartiers" also existed until 1860 as well-defined administrative sub-areas of each "Arrondissement". They were officially used as location by notaries. I tagged them as PPLX. But it does not seem to allow for polygons, neither can we include them into a hierarchy. So the questions here are:
    * Should we use something else as PPLH or PCLH ?
    * or even ADMDH in order to have true polygon boundaries ?[/list]
  • I do not have the rights to create the former "departments" of Seine and Seine-et-Oise as ADM2H (and their districts ADM3H), neither for the former cities of Seine as ADM4H. These were included in Paris in 1968, and are still used place-names (Belleville, Grenelle, La Villette, Vaugirard and Auteuil, Batignolles-Monceau, Bercy, Charonne, La Chapelle, Montmartre, Passy). Could I get upgraded rights ?
  • I'm not sure how to add the administrative hierarchy for *H (ideally, there should be a hierarchy ADMH ...). It it doable yet ?
  • I also found a lot of old towns that existed administratively all over France, and merged over time (see example, full list). These are not tagged as ADMH but only as PPL. Is there some Guideline on that ?
  • Former French Napoleonic departments (1793-1814) - nowadays in Germany , Luxembourg and Belgium - are also lacking : Mont-Tonnerre, Roer, Saar and Rhine and Moselle.

    I saw moderately recent discussions (2011, 2012) related to isHistorical / isColloquial and ADMxH, but I do not know what is current status (especially tags FromPeriod and TillPeriod).
    I also noted Laos already has From / Till columns for each ADM1.

    PS: @OMS_Services, if your are still interested, we can get in touch about how we handle such space-time data in our software.

    Thank you in advance for any information or pointer on how to add historic support to GeoNames,

    Sincerely,
    Bastien Jacquet
    Amateur genealogist, developer of Gramps
  • marc



    Joined: 08/12/2005 07:39:47
    Messages: 4412
    Offline

    Hi Bastien

    Polygons are not directly editable, you can send me the data in a file. The same for the from, till dates, they are stored for adm but not yet on the user interface.
    The Arrondissement of Paris are also ADM5:
    http://www.geonames.org/search.html?q=adm5%2C+fr%2C+paris&BBOX=
    You are right, the ADM5H is missing. I have added it just now.

    For places of the past you should use a corresponding feature code. The PPLX is used for current locations. If they are 'administrative subareas' then they should be of feature type A not P.

    The administrative hierarchy of the past can only be modelled via the hierarchy (tabs 'children' and 'parents').

    I have increased your user level. Please only add historic features with the 'historic' feature code.

    The primary focus of GeoNames is to model the current situation. The historic aspect of features is something that will be improved step by step.

    The historic admd of France are missing because they not yet been in focus.

    Marc

    [WWW]
     
    Forum Index -> Administrative Divisions
    Go to:   
    Powered by JForum 2.1.5 © JForum Team