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elamoureux



Joined: 21/01/2010 16:55:09
Messages: 2
Location: One Economy Corporation
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I recently suggested using GeoNames as a data source for geomapping Haiti, and it was suggested that we avoid GeoNames since your data is comprised of 3rd party data.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Geonames#Can_we_use_geonames_.3F

"Geonames aggregates data from other sources and you will see in the list even organisations like the Ordnance Survey listed. Thus it is not possible to say whether data is or is not subject to copyright. As a source geonames is best avoided. Better to go back to the original sources that they use and try and establish if the bit of data you are looking for is available freely or not." 


is this correct?

sorry if this question has already been asked.
marc



Joined: 08/12/2005 07:39:47
Messages: 4412
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This is utter bloody nonsense. It is about GeoNames use of googlemaps. On the page you refer to the highlighted phrase is "geonames.org data is probably a derived work of Google Maps and is therefore not suitable for import in OSM".

You will find a couple of threads on this forum and on the geonames google groups about the same topic.

I am convinced it is not a derived work because:
- only a fraction of the places in geonames are modified this way
- the work is done manually, it needs understanding of the situation to locate the place on the map and the satellite image.
- the map is not copied exactly, it is only about positions of cities

http://forum.geonames.org/gforum/posts/list/262.page


What is really weird with this discussion is that the same persons that consider this a problematic use case of googlemaps have no hesitations about osm's own use of yahoo maps. As much as I am convinced that geonames's use of googlemaps is not posing any problems I am convinced that osm is violating copyrights with the usage of yahoo maps (streets are copied exactly, some cities have even been copied entirely from yahoo maps). They usually justify it with some permission by a yahoo manager. Sounds good. However, the problem with this 'permission' is that it is absolutely meaningless. All this 'permission' can possibly mean is that osm is allowed to use the javascript library, something everybody is anyhow allowed to do. Yahoo does not own the data behind yahoo maps, thus no yahoo manager can give any permission on the usage of the data.


Marc

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elamoureux



Joined: 21/01/2010 16:55:09
Messages: 2
Location: One Economy Corporation
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marc, thanks for replying.

you know I read something interesting the other day. a US company asked a phone book maker to share their numbers. the phone book maker said no, so the requesting company just .. took the data anyway. so the phone book maker sued.

the phone book maker lost. Justice O'Connor said that a copyright protects things that is original and creative, and facts are neither.

so .. that's interesing.

regardless its good to know that you are confident in both the structural and ethical integrity of your product. I think its a great product.

sorry for posting a dupe thread I did a search first I promise. =\
marc



Joined: 08/12/2005 07:39:47
Messages: 4412
Offline

From my feeling I don't agree with the US supreme court. There can be a lot of effort in a data compilation work, often more work than in some music song or other protected item.
Most other countries don't share the view of the US supreme court. Every country has other laws. Even if the US supreme court allowed us explicitly to use this or that data source it would be irrelevant as there is already a lot of US data available in the public domain. In other countries where no free information is available the US laws and rulings don't count.

Best


Marc

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